ロシアの経済学者
ボブコフ・バヤチャスラブ　ニコラヤビッチ
Bobkov Vyacheslav Nikolayevitch

経済博士　教授　

Doctor of Econom ics, Professor,
Honoured Science Worker of the Rossiyskaya Federatsiya,
Head of the Laboratory of Problems of Living Standards and Quality of Life at the Institute of Socioeconomic Studies of Population,
Russian Academy of Sciences,
Chief Research Worker of the Scientifc School «Theory and Technology of Management» at G V Plekhanov Russian University of Economics

Rossiyskaya Federatsiyaの名誉ある科学労働者、
人口社会経済学研究所の生活水準と生活の質の問題の研究所長
ロシア科学アカデミー、
G Vプレハノフロシア経済大学の科学学校«経営の理論と技術»の主任研究員

- My name is Vyacheslav Bobkov.
I am a professor. I work at the Russian Academy of Sciences at the Institute of Social and Economic Studies of Population. I also work at the Plekhanov Russian University of Economics. This is a large Russian University. We in Russia are closely following all those experiments that take place in different countries of the world in connection with testing unconditional basic income. We believe that the introduction of unconditional basic income will allow, or rather, there is much to introduce unconditional basic income. But first of all, it is the technological replacement of labor with modern means of production, digital technologies, robots and others. This is a replacement for standard employment, which is based on a full-time week, on high guarantees for workers with flexible employment. As a result, workers lose a number of labor social guarantees. And this is also one of the reasons why unconditional basic income is necessary. Thirdly, this is the growth of social injustice associated with the growth of inequality, the level and quality of life of people and high poverty in the world. It is also a need to enhance the stability of the development of societies. Well, a number of other reasons. We believe that the introduction of unconditional basic income will solve a number of problems. But above all, it will allow us to find a new balance between supply and demand of labor. It will make labor more highly qualified and of high quality. It will reduce social and economic inequality and solve a number of acute problems related to poverty. It will increase the sustainability of modern societies and a number of other issues. But at the same time, we see that a number of problems related to the category of unconditional basic income and its necessity have not been theoretically worked out. And these problems need to be addressed. What concerns do we have? These are fears primarily associated with the fact that the introduction of unconditional basic income, it will reduce motivation to work, the participation of workers. All the same, labor is one of the basic needs of people in modern society. Although of course this need is largely economic. Nevertheless, it is important to find ways to combine this unconditional payment with need, even with an increase in the need for labor income. Today, this balance is not yet clear. Will a significant part of the population lose their motivation to work? Second, the question is also unclear whether this desire to self-isolation of people, decrease in the need for cooperation, will increase. Already today, the individualization of labor leads to the degradation of collectives, people are increasingly working individually, including remotely. And if we introduce unconditional basic income, then people will become even more independent, their need for collective protection of labor from employers, in collective forms of organization may weaken even more so to speak. Could this lead to the fact that it will contribute, instead of the positive, to the offensive of capital on labor and vice versa to a decrease in the minimum social guarantees that already exist in society. Minimum wage and other guarantees. Thirdly, we think that perhaps unconditional basic income, its introduction is associated with the risks of whether the state is ready to take on these responsibilities today to replace the payouts that are available. They will have to be replaced, and the social protection system will be significantly transformed, and the social insurance system will have to be significantly transformed, and a number of employees will be freed who administer this system. And payouts will have to be made from the state budget. Is the state ready to take such expenses, rather large expenses. And most importantly, is it ready to continue them stably. Because, we know that society is developing unstable. And today there are opportunities. Tomorrow these opportunities will be less. Well already, if we establish this unconditional basic income, then the state should have an obligation to finance it constantly. This payout. Well, a number of other obscure issues. Therefore, today the introduction of basic income, as in all countries, it does not yet have such forms of sustainable such an agreement between society and the state. It is no accident that in Switzerland when a referendum was held on the advisability of introducing unconditional basic income, all these contradictions that have not been resolved today have led to the fact that the majority of Swiss people opposed the introduction of this unconditional basic income. Therefore, today work is being done to reach consensus, and it is impossible to reach consensus in society. And this new social contract, so that it is between people and the state, and various communities within the state, cannot be solved without testing. And so we are also experimenting in Russia. In our country, of course, experimentation does not have such wide scaling as in some countries in which it is conducted. Like for example in Finland, like for example in Canada, we know these experiments are carried out. In Italy, it is being held. That is, we are studying these experiments, and we are also experimenting. Today we believe that in general unconditional basic income should pass, as the form of unconditionality itself, it is not unconditional yet. It will go through certain stages of conditionality. What does conditional mean? It does mean not for everyone. It does mean not permanently, limited time. This means different payouts for the different categories that will be paid. Here we are using such forms for now. I myself was the head of the experiment that we conducted in one of the northern regions of Russia, in the Vologda Oblast. When we to families with children, we believe that this is one of the categories in Russia, anyway. Yes, I think all over the world too, all the same, children are the future, and first of all, it is necessary to ensure conditions for the development of children. And so we conducted an experiment to replace the existing forms of social support for families with children by introducing such a conditional income. That is, we have transformed the system of social protection of poor families with children so that after providing them with social support, they have a certain guaranteed income level. Because today in Russia the social support system is so built that after all these numerous payments that poor families receive, they do not experience any significant improvement in their financial situation. We set the task to raise it to a well-defined level. That is, to make it guaranteed that after protection, well, for example, before there ... Also, so that there is no poverty, let’s say that every family can pay for food. Or we proposed the second level, in addition to nutrition, to provide children with a certain development. That there was a computer necessarily in the family. To have the Internet. That there was a mobile connection. So that they can pay for it all. The third level, to have a living wage. Well, we looked, in that region we were not able to raise to the living wage. We raised it to two-thirds of the the living wage, regional. And before the introduction of this experiment, it did not even reach one third of the the living wage after all forms of social protection. We are also developing various models that could be used in the future as experimental models in our country. We think that one of the categories for which it is necessary to introduce unconditional basic income is, of course, unemployed. But we would like to modernize the experience that was available in Finland. In a little another way, will lead such an experiment. That is, we want to hold it so that the unemployed with the help of the employment service concludes a triple agreement between him, the employment service, and the future employer, for which he will change his qualifications for his future job. We have suggestions on how to organize this process, so that during the period of his retraining, and employers, both he and the employment service would be interested in changing his qualifications. So that this payment in the form of unconditional basic income also stimulates him, so that he changes his qualifications, and that the employer at this time receives some payments in order to create a job for him, so that he takes it. That it was not just that he later looked for a job so that the employer was interested. Well, and the employment service, that it was also interested in such a solution to the issue. We also think that one of the tasks that could be solved in Russia, this is facilitate the transition from graduates of educational institutions who completed their studies to their first place of work. This is a worldwide problem. The search for the first place of work is usually stretched into time and graduates of higher educational institutions, as well as professional and other lower levels of professional education, they are looking for work, first job, stable job, for quite some time. In Russia, this is on average more than 2 years. If you didn’t find right away, then you are looking for a long time. He may be unemployed, be self-employed, and temporarily busy until he finds a stable job that suits him. Here we also propose a mechanism that is related to the fact that even before graduation, during the period of the so-called undergraduate practice, when he already writes some work of his own in the organization. To create such a mechanism that he has a mentor, that he is paid there, so that, as on the principle of temporary employment, him will receive this basic income, this graduate. But provided that he fulfills a number of requirements. And so on. Well, we also have an intention, there is such a model that we propose to introduce for those workers who are precariously work. It means that if you have many signs of precarious work: low salaries, if you are looking for work, you work but are not comfortable with it, you continue to look for work if you have shortened working hours there. If several signs of such are observed, then these categories should be distinguished in order to include them in this experiment on the payment of unconditional basic income. To increase their social security, increase the opportunity for them to look for more decent work and a number of others. Therefore, we of course now have a lot of work with politicians. Because it is a political problem. Politicians must make a fundamental decision whether Russia will be given such a broad path to this instrument in socio-economic policy, which is unconditional basic income. So far, of course, our politicians are not ready for this. But we work with them through writing various scientific publications, arranging scientific conferences, speaking on television, and conducting these different experiments wherever possible. Well, we hope that some time will pass and we will still convince politicians that in our country this unconditional basic income should acquire a wider scale. Gradually. This will probably take a long time, but through transitional forms, after some time, it should become one of the instruments, such prominent instruments of economic social policy.
- What is approximately a period of time? Five to ten years?
- Oh, it's hard to say. We have everything in Russia ... well, I think that it’s not five or not ten years, if we talk about its unconditionalness. That is, as it were, for everyone. This, of course, must pass and be replaced by a generation of politicians. They must first be taught to think differently. They don’t think so now. And for this they will have to undergo training. They must convey the very idea to young people who will become new politicians. And then they can make that decision.
- Does the Russian people need such an unconditional income?
- Naturally, no one would have refused this unconditional income. There are a lot of poor people in Russia. In Russia, insufficient wages. And therefore, there is a need for it, as income. But, you know what a thing, the point is to introduce these payments, combined with a change in the attitude of people to these payments. Because if it leads to a reduction in employment today, because, low salaries in comparison with basic income. Why work for such a salary if I get paid such income? That is, we must introduce this unconditional basic income as we change people's motivation, as we change people's minds, as we create motivation mechanisms and jobs in society. So that people can receive this basic income to continue to search and find and develop their abilities. Find more decent employment. Therefore, this process is gradual. The necessary, but a whole range of measures must be implemented. This is a very difficult task. Important, but all over the world it is still not solved yet. That's all, it will go through the stages of experiments for a very long time. In Russia, this is being actively discussed. The idea hangs in the air. In the scientific community, it is not just hanging in the air, it is being developed. And it comes through the media. I have already spoken in the form of all kinds of conferences, in the form of television programs, in the form of scientific projects that are being implemented. But time must pass in order to change the consciousness of politicians, the consciousness of people and change the existing mechanisms of social support. Which today is conservative because huge armies of officials are interested in their preservation. These are their workplaces. This is an established way of distributing income and budget.
- But in any case, if all countries, including us, go to this, then we will achieve this, just in what form?
- I think maybe we will not only be in the tail, maybe we will conduct some experiments that have not yet been conducted in the world. Yes, we are preparing for this. In any case, Russian science is preparing for this. And we can offer politicians a number of tools already now.
- Perfect!